Speaker 1: 0:13

Welcome to Auto Care On Air, a candid podcast for a curious industry. I'm Stacey Miller, vice President of Communications at the Auto Care Association, and this is Traction Control, where we chat about recent news from the global to the local level and what it may mean to the industry, featuring guests on the front lines. Let's roll. The headline we're talking about today is almost half of US EV owners are planning to return to gasoline or ICE vehicles An absolutely astounding headline after all of the hoopla over electric vehicles, forced electric vehicle adoptions, mandates, subsidies coming straight out of McKinsey and Company. So this new study found that those most familiar with the costs and benefits of EV ownership and those who were enthusiastic about the early adoption were having second thoughts, and some of those reasons were being they didn't have the greatest experiences with charging higher than expected costs, especially long-term costs of the electric vehicles, and limited utility, especially for long trips. That range anxiety is coming into play. So there's an average time that electric vehicles are sitting on their dealer lots which is increasing and has become almost twice as long as the average time for the internal combustion engine vehicles. Car dealers are asking the Biden administration to back off of its forced march to compel buyers to choose electric vehicles. As sales suffer and, as you can see in additional headlines, manufacturers have been stepping away from commitments to electrify their fleets, at least in the near term.

Speaker 1: 1:50

So today, with me, I've gone to the Institute for Energy Research, who is really involved in the issue. They're advocating for a free market for energy and we're going to talk to them today about what this means. Where did we go wrong and how can we rectify? What's going on with electric vehicles and what steps might we have missed in the road to electric vehicle adoption of the Institute for Energy Research, the IER, and its advocacy arm, the American Energy Alliance, aea, where he develops the organization's free market policy positions and implements education efforts for key energy stakeholders, including lawmakers, agency officials, industry leaders, consumers and the media. Prior to joining IER, tom held numerous positions in the private sector and on Capitol Hill. He also managed the Department of Energy on the Presidential Transition Team for President-elect Donald Trump. Welcome Tom.

Speaker 2: 2:51

Well, thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 2:53

We love having you here on Auto Care On Air. I'm so excited for this podcast because we really want to bring a new perspective to something that has been in the media for a long time but it continues to make headlines, and that is electric vehicles and American drivers' preference for them, which seems to have gotten really excited. We got to a peak Everybody was buying electric vehicles. We were mandating that folks were buying electric vehicles and now we're starting to see that adoption slow, which is really curious and throwing some industries for a loop, including my industry, the automotive aftermarket. But before we dive in, I want to dive into a little bit about you, tom, and a little bit about the IER. So tell me a little bit about the Institute for Energy Research, what you do and what's important to you guys.

Speaker 2: 3:38

So we've been around for a long time. We started out as a little tiny nonprofit in Houston and about 17 years ago now I took over the organization. We moved it to Washington, beefed up its national presence. It really is what we call a think tank, but our focus is narrow. It's on energy and environmental policy and how it impacts consumers, businesses and markets, both nationally and globally, businesses and markets both nationally and globally. So we're sort of a watchdog, if you will, sort of keeping an eye on what the policies, what's happening in town, and we try to get it to a point where we explain it to people in an easier way so they can understand what the implications of the policies are and how it impacts them, and then let them choose to engage in the process with all that with their arm, with that information that they're able to be better informed as consumers, as businesses, et cetera. So that's kind of how I describe us.

Speaker 1: 4:37

I love what you said about being informed and letting people choose. That's very in line with what we represent here at the Auto Care Association choice and independence, and the vehicles that you drive and how you maintain them. Policy and regulations for environmental. That's a really complex world. What brought you here and why?

Speaker 2: 4:55

So I started out in college. I thought I wanted to be a lawyer and I started working at a law firm just to get a jump on it and spent a little time talking to the attorneys at the firm and they were strongly encouraging me to think about other options. And so I stumbled into Washington on Capitol Hill, did some internships in college and I got the bug, got involved in energy environmental policy from the very beginning, worked on Capitol Hill, like I said, for numerous positions, but also ended up in leadership in the House of Representatives, which was very eye-opening and really just expanded my horizons and my ability to see how the whole process works and how to impact change. And then I got some private sector experience.

Speaker 2: 5:43

After that and about five years into that, this organization reached out to me and I knew it was exactly what I wanted to do, because I wanted to be able to make an impact and make a difference without having to be like in that lobby world where you're focusing on narrow legislation or trying to, you know, kind of, get this fixed there and get that fixed there. I really wanted to be working for an organization that was speaking truth to power, talking about how these issues impact real people and helping people understand just how these policies, how big of an impact that they have on our lives, and probably nowhere lately anyway, has there been a bigger impact than in this issue space with respect to choice, vehicle choice and things like that.

Speaker 1: 6:33

Absolutely. I mean, when I first came into this industry, talk about being thrown into the deep end and going to Capitol Hill and learning about how the sausage is made. So they say it. It's really confusing, especially for a regular driver like myself. If I try to explain what I'm doing to my family, it can be really difficult. So policies, regulation, legislation even for our members it can be a lot to handle. So having organizations like ours there to sift through some of the noise, figure out what's best for some of these businesses and for the end consumer, is really important.

Speaker 2: 7:06

Yeah, in a lot of ways our jobs are really similar and I think it's great. From your perspective, you're representing a more narrow subset, but it's the same concept and this issue is an economic issue, it's a freedom issue, it's a mobility issue. They're all intertwined right. If you don't have the ability to get around in this economy, in this society, it's a real challenge. A lot of people come to this country with nothing and the first thing that they do besides hopefully find their way around and get their self-situated is look for a vehicle. And the policies the cumulative impact of these policies has been that cars are increasingly further and further out of reach in terms of our ability to afford them, and that slows down that process for them. It prevents them from getting that first taste of mobility so they can go back and forth to a job to do the basic stuff that everyone does, and people who can afford it don't really think about it in those terms, so that doesn't occur to them how important vehicles and mobility care of your family.

Speaker 2: 8:25

And now the starting price of a car, a good car it's probably around $30,000.

Speaker 1: 8:47

They say there's maybe two models under $20,000, now brand new, which is astounding to me in this lifetime.

Speaker 2: 8:54

Yeah, and the ones that are in the electric vehicle space are even more expensive by a factor of15,000 or $20,000 depending on the vehicle, and that's troubling, because the fewer cars that are being produced that are affordable means that the used car market even gets impacted as well, because people hang on to their cars longer, they're not moving out of their starter car, their beater, and they're holding onto those cars, so that reduces the availability of used cars, which is usually an entry-level vehicle.

Speaker 2: 9:32

So it has these ripple effects that the folks that are sitting around these agencies in Washington and cooking up these magic plans about how to manipulate the vehicle market I don't think they factor that into their equation. It's more of an environmental problem or challenge for them, right, where they perceive or view that we have to get off of gas powered vehicles and this is the only way to do it is to sort of pick at these regulations and interpret these regulations in ways that the Congress never envisioned. We can get into that and the result is the situation we're in, where it's increasingly difficult to afford to get into the vehicle market, and that sets you back as a new immigrant or as someone in a lower income ladder or a high school kid Right, whose parents I've got one now. My oldest just got her license on july 3rd well we call it our, our independence day, independence day so.

Speaker 2: 10:29

But you know we want her to put have some skin in the game and buy her own car. But it's going to take longer, right?

Speaker 1: 10:35

so could you imagine us a 17 year old wrecking a 30 000 car instead of a 1500? Beater that that ooh.

Speaker 2: 10:42

Exactly yes, and it won't happen. Trust me in my household Knock on wood, it will not.

Speaker 1: 10:47

Yeah, knock on wood, it will not. Wow, I'm really glad that we're having this conversation, because do you think that we targeted the wrong thing? There's so much data out there when it comes to environmental sustainability. Coming from my industry, you hit on a point about the average age of the vehicle and over the past at least seven years, since I've been monitoring it Auto Care Association has been monitoring it for 35 years the average age of the vehicle has risen exponentially. So the average age now is 12.7 years old and rising, and Americans are keeping their cars longer because of the fact that they're so expensive to buy, they're so expensive to fix, insurance rates are going up and inflation. They have to afford gas and groceries and food. They're not worried about buying a new car. So why would they buy an EV that's 1.5, two times, even three times, the long-term cost of what they would normally be waiting for? It's a really interesting challenge.

Speaker 2: 11:46

Right, and we mentioned earlier about EV penetration in the market, and it was low-hanging fruit for a while. Most of the vehicles that were being purchased were very high-end luxury vehicles and I have nothing against that If you can afford and want a fancy Tesla or more power to you. But most of the data shows those people are of higher income brackets. It's usually their third car. In a lot of instances sometimes their fourth car. They don't get rid of their SUV or the other car that they have their Jeep or whatever and they drive it around for its purpose, and each car sort of. That's what it should be. You should pick a car based on your preference, the things that you want, that you value in a vehicle. If you have a large family, you want a big car, Right. You want a minivan, a swagger wagon or whatever, right. But if you can afford to, you know, if you live in San Francisco or New York or Austin and you want a Tesla to run around with, for whatever reason, more power to you. Just don't take away my choice.

Speaker 1: 12:52

Right.

Speaker 2: 12:53

Don't take away the options for other vehicles. And this idea that somehow internal combustion engine cars are not clean is a myth Couldn't be more false. It's an absolute myth. The technology has gone gangbusters over the years, and when you sort of try to force the changes in the market, you also take away the incentive for continued research in internal combustion engines. And then you mentioned the age of the cars. Newer cars with all this technology we have are so much safer. You got the cameras everywhere, you have the adaptive cruise control. These features are great. But if you have an older car you don't have those features. But if you have no choice but to keep your car because of the cost or whatever, then you're missing out on those safety features as well. And so it's it's. It makes the car less safe in some ways for you as a driver.

Speaker 1: 13:53

And that's kind of that idea of choice. That was the driving factor behind your save our cars initiative, right, tell me a little bit more about that.

Speaker 2: 14:01

Save Our Cars initiative. Right, tell me a little bit more about that? Sure, so you know, we've seen this since about 2010 or so. We have seen an effort and it really started, I think, with the bailouts. Shortly after the government bailed out some of the domestic manufacturers, there was a push to get them sort of more aligned with their environmental goals shall we put it diplomatically to which they all mostly agreed to be under this regime of an unrealistic regulation to manage their fuel efficiency the CAFE rule. Everyone in this, these guys, your guys, all know what that is, and it started there and we started being very concerned about it then. Then we had a little bit of a break in 2016, 2020.

Speaker 2: 14:54

President Trump went and attempted to reverse some of those regulations, but the auto companies never really expected a lot of those rules to just vanish and disappear, and so they sort of kept sort of marching forward in that direction of OK, we're probably going to see the writing on the wall here with EVs and also like we were saying that the vehicle market for EVs was increasing, so those things were happening.

Speaker 2: 15:22

At the time, we said, you know, we really got to. We got to share this information with folks, get them engaged and then in 2020, with President Biden, the rules really accelerated, and that's when we started saying, look, we're just one small group. We got to get others involved, and it was so easy because a lot of different groups that are in our coalition have members like your association or have donors or activists or supporters, and they were asking their leaders of those groups questions that they didn't really have answers to, and so the coalition grew quickly as a result, to the point where up to about 30 or so members nationwide, some state-based groups and everything else and that's important, because we share knowledge and information, we share each other's research and then we have a bigger audience to speak to right, and so the coalition has been great in that it will help us really get the word out, amplify what we're doing at IER and get more people enlisted and engaged in it.

Speaker 1: 16:29

What do you hope is the end impact of that campaign? I want these rules to go away.

Speaker 2: 16:34

I want us to get the government out of the business of telling us what types of cars and trucks we can drive. I want us to be able to make those choices and I want the auto companies to feel free to make the types of vehicles that consumers want, not what bureaucrats in Sacramento dictate to them or here at the EPA or at the Department of Treasury. It's that simple. We should be free to choose. I don't have anything against electric vehicles. I know I'm aware of many of the flaws of them. Most Americans are becoming aware. As you know, there was a recent study that showed that about 50% of existing EV owners don't really want to make it the next choice for them. They kind of want to go back to the ICE vehicle, and that's very telling, right? And the used car market for EVs is not very good, because the biggest cost to maintain a used EV is you might have to replace the battery.

Speaker 2: 17:40

It's a huge chunk of the entire cost of the car. Right to replace the battery. It's a huge chunk of the entire cost of the car. So, companies, I think there's a really simple solution to this Let the automakers decide what types of vehicles to make based on what people want. But if you want to sort of put your thumb on the scale at government in the form of more fuel efficient cars, set a standard but get out of the way. Don't dictate the car and the automobile manufacturers, I suspect, will respond accordingly. You're already seeing a surge in hybrids. It's kind of like this best of both worlds, right, you get the reliability of a nice vehicle, plus you get the you know, the boost in fuel efficiency of that, of that hybrids component. So it's just silly to me that that people in Washington are are are so deeply entrenched into this, into this conversation, to the extent that they are.

Speaker 1: 18:36

It's, it's mind blowing. Honestly, At AutoCare, you know, part of our job is to prepare manufacturers, distributors, retailers and shops for the future of automotive. So when electric vehicles began coming out, everybody was like whoa, what do we do here? How do we address this in our 10-year plan? So tons of organizations we're talking IHS, market, mckinsey, hanover, deloitte they're all coming out with studies and research on electric vehicles and those penetration forecasts through 2025, 2035, 2045. And they were all really scary, I think, to our industry. So we start manufacturing the parts, we're developing tools and training. We're on the ground with the shops. We've got hybrid-only and electric only shops trying to figure out how to respond to this.

Speaker 1: 19:24

And you know, one of the cool things about automotive is, you know, our CEO likes to say like we've always adapted, we've always evolved. So from the crank to start to the push to start right, like a new piece of technology comes out, we figure it out and then we roll with it. We're tinkerers by nature. So this electric vehicle stuff comes out and everybody's really worried about it. What's the penetration? What's going to be the percentage of EV to gas? All these automakers are jumping on board and it's fever. We're hustling. Now Toyota says hey, we're backing off. I heard a commercial on a podcast the other day where the Toyota CEO said it's your right to choose whether you want gas or EV or hybrid.

Speaker 2: 20:06

They must be listening to us, right, right.

Speaker 1: 20:08

And I thought are you kidding me? Last year, or maybe the year before, this was the opposite tune. So to see them pull back in this headline that you're talking about, which we're here to talk about today, nearly 50% of EV owners are considering going back to ICE. This is a huge 180 from where we were maybe 12 months ago. So let's talk a little bit about what went wrong. Why do we think people are going? What are the issues with the EV that?

Speaker 2: 20:36

we're really seeing. Well, they're just not ready. You know, it's not that complicated. Most advances in technology come from. You know something that dramatically improves from the previous thing? And just a quick anecdote the horse and buggy was replaced by the automobile. Why? You can just imagine how many reasons why it's safer, it's faster's, faster, you don't have as many emissions. We'll leave it at that.

Speaker 2: 21:11

But in the beginning of the auto industry, evs, internal combustion engines and steam engines, believe it or not, had about a third, roughly, of the market share each. At the dawn of the auto age, there was a real question as to what technology would prevail. Well, it turned out that it was the internal combustion engine because it had so many advantages over electric vehicles and of course, steam just kind of like faded out right. So fast forward to today. Electric vehicle is really nothing more than a technology transfer from a simple fuel delivery mechanism, which is the gas tank, to a complex engine. And then you flip the script it's a simple motor and a complex fuel delivery mechanism, relatively speaking. And the advantages of the simple motor, you know, you can take those into consideration to say, yeah, they're faster off the line or whatever, but they're not giving you anything else.

Speaker 2: 22:09

There's not this radical like improvement in transportation. It's still a car Right, but it's more expensive. There aren't as many charging stations. The range changes varies in a lot of places depending on the weather, depending on how much of a payload you're carrying. There's just so many like. The range anxiety thing is for real right Because people don't want to be. And then we've seen these anecdotes and articles now of people taking EV road trips to test it out and see how it works and finding out that they get to a charging station and there's all kinds of problems with the church. That may eventually come, but it's not coming fast enough for the pace that the government wants it to come.

Speaker 2: 22:55

And the result is the challenges that the industry is facing. Not to mention, there's all kinds of discussions about the Jersey barriers not the Jersey barriers, but the guardrails and how they need to be heavier.

Speaker 1: 23:08

Right.

Speaker 2: 23:14

So do you have to then replace every guardrail in the good old US of A to make them accommodate for EVs? There's talk about challenges in concentrated areas like urban areas with parking garages and things like that risk of fire. A lot of people are complaining that these things go off. They're like chemical fires, right, they don't stop. So look, these are all regular gas. Cars have challenges too, right, don't get me wrong. But these are all very serious impediments to just simply like flipping a switch and replacing it. Now, that's just sort of the mechanics of it. Let's talk about the national security implications of it.

Speaker 2: 23:49

We are a hydrocarbon-based economy. We're the richest energy nation in the world. We have more oil and gas underneath our lands and waters than any other country in the world. We're the number one producer of hydrocarbons. Hydrocarbons is our transportation. They want to switch to EVs. Evs are minerals, they're materials, they're cobalt, lithium, they're all these fancy sounding names, but they're all mined or processed and controlled by a country called China China that last I checked. We're not in the best of situations with right. Right. What the government is asking us to do is to switch over to an economy and an energy system based on minerals and materials, which are owned and controlled to the tune of 80% by China. That is not a recipe for success.

Speaker 2: 24:44

Absolutely is not a recipe for success. It's scary to me to think that our own government would risk our national security in the name of getting off of gas-powered cars, because supposedly that's the reason Our planet won't survive or something without them, and I just don't believe that. I think gas-powered cars, as we said earlier, are constantly improving and they call this the life cycle cost to make one car versus the other. We're finding more and more that it's marginal.

Speaker 2: 25:22

It's kind of a wash in terms of the sort of overall cumulative impacts of CO2 emissions. So what are we really doing this for?

Speaker 1: 25:29

Yeah, it kind of cancels.

Speaker 2: 25:30

I always ask that question Like what's the underlying motive here? And part of me thinks that it is because there's this sort of organized VM in opposition to oil and gas. Oil makes gasoline, Gasoline goes in a gas-powered car and I think it simply comes down to that. They're just yet another part of that sort of overall agenda to sort of get us off of oil.

Speaker 3: 25:57

This is DTP IT Director and Sustainability Committee. Staff Liaison at Auto Care Association. Are you passionate about shaping our industry's future? Join an Auto Care Association. Are you passionate about shaping our industry's future? Join an Auto Care Association advisory committee and make a real impact as a volunteer. You will drive innovation, tackle key challenges and collaborate on cutting-edge solutions for the entire supply chain. Don't miss out. Join us at our upcoming Leadership Days event to start making a difference. Learn more at autocareorg slash leadership days and find information on current committees at autocareorg slash committees.

Speaker 1: 26:34

I mean the infrastructure. When that started happening, it really boggled my mind. Again, this whole conversation is mind boggling, but you're speaking my love language, because all the points that you're making here are ones that we've been discussing both internally and externally through the industry, and just trying to bring a little bit more light to because it's not bah humbug, we hate EVs. It's how can we get to this place when we don't have some of those foundational things in place? So you have manufacturers that are changing their entire business strategies and they're. So you have manufacturers that are changing their entire business strategies and they're contributing billions of dollars to this massive economy. That's essential. Like how many things do you rely on that need wheels to get you where you need to go? I'm not just talking about your car, I'm talking about public transportation and buses and trains and the wheels on airplanes. Right, all of that is affected. The infrastructure. I flew to Connecticut not too long ago and they offered me an EV at the rental car company and I thought, well, I'm going to be driving two and a half hours north of here and there's certainly no charging stations up there, so I'm going to pass. And it was just such an easy thought and my brain was wondering well, how many other people are passing on this or how many other people are thinking this is a really cool opportunity. I'm going to try that EV. And then they get to their destination and maybe they don't have the charging infrastructure to get where they need to go. So that was point number one, where it really became real to me.

Speaker 1: 28:04

Point number two is that we talk about environmental impact and sustainability, and some of the points we like to talk about are always repair and replace, instead of throwing things out. A circular economy. Recycling is really important and it's proven. We recycle tires, we recycle oil. Not many people know that we use the oil from cars that we take out of oil changes and we use it for heating and furnaces and buildings. Right, there's all these really cool different uses that we use to make sure that we're a sustainable industry.

Speaker 1: 28:34

But then the Washington Post I don't know if you read this, there was an expose on it, I think, last year that talked about the mining of EV materials and they were mining the copper, I believe, in Indonesia and they were decimating these local communities. So we're talking villages that were completely peaceful. They're farming, they're rural. They were found to have these valuable materials, the companies came in to mine them and essentially ruined those communities, meaning all of the bad things that were coming out of the end of the process. In order to mine those materials were going into their rivers and water supplies, destroying their farms, harming their fish. Their entire ecosystem was ruined, and why didn't that make headlines?

Speaker 2: 29:18

Well, it doesn't, because the folks who are pushing this don't want it in our yard. They're happy that it's in someone else's yard, and that's the other point, too is the United States by far has the most stringent environmental and safety and health regulations in the world, and that is a function of our wealth to a large extent, and so that wouldn't even be possible here if we were to mine these materials here. But the same people who are promoting this agenda are also blocking, through the use of government agencies and environmental lawsuits and things like that, our ability to permit and produce those materials in the United States, where they can be monitored, where the tailings and all the things that you're talking about are strictly, strictly monitored. So that's to me, another irony of all of this is that they're exporting a lot of this, of the industrial process involved in it, and they just sort of turn a blind eye to that. And these are the same people that purportedly care so much about the environment.

Speaker 1: 30:29

Right, so you know we talked about what went wrong. What do you think was the step that we missed? Was it hybrid, or was there something else that you think?

Speaker 2: 30:40

So I think there are a couple of things. I think about this a lot. You know, diesel engines got kind of a bad rap, you know, back in the day, with the knocks and the pings and everything else, and some of the old school guys like, oh yeah, I can't get one of those, you know. But you know there is a lot more huge advances in diesel technology clean, low sulfur diesel, everything else. I think cars sort of bypass that step. I think it's a more proficient or prolific in Europe, but we missed that step here to stretch out that gas to get more fuel efficiency.

Speaker 2: 31:18

Hybrids, I think, started out. You know the Prius was kind of a popular car and everyone kind of loved it, and now you're seeing this sort of rena, of renaissance, if you will, of hybrid, hybrids. But the but the larger um point is, is that we don't know what we're missing because the government keeps trying to force us to do one thing and what the it's not letting the market drive. That it's not. It's not letting the market drive. That it's not. It's not letting markets, you know, and research and all the good stuff that comes up.

Speaker 2: 31:51

You know when, when you're in a competent, in a free market, competitive environment, you want an edge, you know, and so you. You push the boundaries of your research. You try to like there's a. I was in a conference recently where the folks who study, you know and and do sort of the advances in internal combustion engines were complaining that what's the point If governments around the world aren't going to let us use these cars anymore. Why don't we just stop innovating in that space? And that's such a wasted, you know, opportunity in my view.

Speaker 1: 32:24

So un-American.

Speaker 2: 32:25

Yeah, absolutely so. I think that's you know. It's like it's hard to answer that question sometimes because you know our view is we don't know what we're missing. But when the government sort of shoehorns you into a certain thing, it's inevitable that that's where everyone goes. And the other thing is they're pumping billions and billions of dollars in subsidies into converting ice vehicle factories and plants here into electric vehicle factories and plants here and your guys don't get those. I don't see all these wonderful programs out of the Inflation Reduction Act for your guys.

Speaker 1: 33:06

Manufacture only, and you're on the hook for that Right.

Speaker 2: 33:09

And so the autos have a lot of like much more incentive to play along as opposed to fighting this, because they know they're getting a lot of subsidies Right. They know they're getting like a backstop in the form of American taxpayer dollars and, by the way, that contributes to inflation, which makes it harder for us to buy groceries, and again it compounds and adds to the cost of a car. So you have this in the subsidies themselves. That's not free. The only people who are benefiting from that are these companies, and so in a lot of cases they'll just sort of play along, and that's unfortunate, because they should be leading and saying no, we can do this ourselves, we'll handle it, let us take the reins.

Speaker 1: 33:57

So what do you think, then, is a better approach?

Speaker 2: 34:00

So let's remove the policies, change the policy, first of all, we have to the CAFE law, which is sort of the under arching federal legislation in the seventies that started this whole process of fuel efficiency mandates. That needs to be. It needs to be recognized that it was passed in the seventies to get us to make us less reliant on foreign oil. That was the purpose of it. We had the oil embargo and the crisis and everything and they said we got to start buckling down and we've got to be more efficient. So that's how it started. And there's an important phrase in that law. It says to that which is technologically and economically feasible.

Speaker 2: 34:49

They weren't ever supposed to use that law to achieve their social agenda item. Right, it was supposed to be helping the industry recognize that fuel efficiency is a priority of federal government and that they should take it into consideration. They used to work with the autos and say what's the right number here, and then they got out of control, just like a lot of other government programs get out of control. But then they added this second component, which is California, and they say as California goes, so does the nation. Well, I'd like to change that to what happens in. California should stay in.

Speaker 2: 35:29

California because I don't want their car ban. I don't want their car ban in Maryland or Virginia or Florida or wherever, and so that's the other component of this. That sort of the Obama administration started this sort of deferring to California on these things. Now California is trying to impose a nationwide car ban. That they want for their state Doesn't work.

Speaker 2: 35:54

We need to get the California stuff has to go away completely. One state shouldn't dictate the terms of the game for everybody else. In the second place, we need to get CAFE back to what it was, which is a law designed to encourage fuel efficiency and that's it, and then let the market sort it out, and then we got to, of course, get rid of all these massive subsidies to sort of force this along. I think we can get there. I really do. I think the more people learn about this, the more they realize that it impacts them. It's hugely unpopular. We do a lot of polling in this space and when people it's a recognition issue. Once people recognize it, they see the folly and they respond accordingly. So that's our job is to do stuff like this to get the word out about what's going on.

Speaker 1: 36:49

Yeah, that's probably one of the most difficult parts about my job and my colleague's job is, we talk about this stuff every single day and a lot of what we do is meant to be proactive, not reactive, right, but the problem is that action rarely happens until some sort of harm occurs. So until it starts affecting you or I or our colleague or your friend or your mom or your sister or whoever, people aren't likely to act, and nor do they have the brain space to get educated about this. So how do we do that better? It's something that we talk about every single day. That's our mission, it's what we do. It's why we're here talking to you today to try to provide a platform to each other to educate more about this, so we could head off this problem now versus later.

Speaker 2: 37:33

right, it's hugely important and it unfortunately is already affecting people. They probably don't realize it, though, right? The added cost of these vehicles is mainly related to this imposition of government into the auto market. It has changed the incentives for the auto manufacturers. It has given them this position where they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. Right, if they don't comply or don't want to play ball with the federal government, then it could be really difficult for them to exist in some cases. But, on the other hand, they're the ones, in my view, who really need to step up and say wait a minute don't.

Speaker 2: 38:27

Let's not what is often. Who is often lost in this conversation is the consumer Right, the folks on the ground who are affected by these decisions, and what is impacting or impairing their ability, as we said earlier, is to get their first car, to get it into the auto field, right To get into the purchase field, and that's the worst part is because we're supposed to be helping people.

Speaker 1: 38:52

Right.

Speaker 2: 38:54

Government's supposed to be there to help, not to like, get in the way or not to, you know, impede progress. It's just very simple. Let us choose Right Freedom to choose.

Speaker 1: 39:08

It's a simple message. Couldn't agree more. And I think when we go to Capitol Hill and we talk to legislators, we live in a bubble, right, Everybody here has a car, has public transportation doesn't really think about it. When you talk to some of the legislators who live in those more rural areas and you put it into perspective, right, let's say, you're a neighbor in this rural area that doesn't have this type of infrastructure or mandated to not be able to purchase an ICE vehicle and had to purchase an electric vehicle, If the cost of that vehicle doesn't come down, how are they getting to work? You're going to let them lose their job, which impacts your local economy. There's a tremendous downstream effect.

Speaker 1: 39:47

So these are the conversations that we're having to have to kind of show the scale of the issue right. It's really easy to talk about it when you live in DC, Miami, New York, LA, all of these. You know all these urban areas, but most of America is not like that. So we like to encourage our staff and our members. Many of our members really know this from heart. They live in those rural areas and we take those road trips and the cars there don't look like the cars here?

Speaker 2: 40:14

No, heck, no, they do not.

Speaker 1: 40:16

And that's the leveling factor.

Speaker 2: 40:17

Right, and a lot of these same people you're talking about, their car is their livelihood.

Speaker 1: 40:24

It is.

Speaker 2: 40:25

Right, if they're on a ranch or if they work for an HVAC company or you know, even if they're windows. You know people who install windows. These are mostly trucks Big, big F-150s, f-250s and things like that big F-150s, f-250s and things like that. And to just sort of tell them pound sand, just suck it up and pay the extra price for a car that may not be as reliable, maybe they will be eventually. Maybe they'll be more affordable, maybe they will be just as powerful. That's not the evidence today, and so, until it is, they should be able to choose one or the other or something in between that we don't know about yet. Right ways who are only thinking about one thing and not thinking about all the other ramifications, and people's livelihoods are impacted by it.

Speaker 1: 41:28

So so many implications. And your example of the ranch really struck it with me because I'll shout out to JC Washbush of the Automotive Aftermarket Auto Parts Alliance His example that he gave to a legislator and his business is down in San Antonio, texas, is the rancher with the Ford F-150. If that truck is down he can't fix it or he doesn't have that truck because there was an ICE mandate. How is he going to service that ranch? That ranch is servicing cows and cattle that goes to the local grocery store, so we don't have beef, we don't have food supply. Costs go up, like we're just in this vicious cycle of inflation and the cost of everything going up and it's hurting Americans.

Speaker 2: 42:09

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I will say that it's really hard for me too, because I'm I'm a car kid. You know, like my Both, my parents growing up worked for General Motors on the assembly line. It was a GM town, it was a radiator division, and that was the big employer in the area, and so they became the whole family. No one ever bought anything than a chevy or a camaro or a malibu or you name it right a grand prix.

Speaker 2: 42:45

Yeah, you know, so like to me, you know, same as me growing up. You know, my first non, even even my first non-gm car technically was a gm car because because they had bought sob and I bought one of those early sobab, you know the turbo Saabs. So I said no because my parents got all mad at me.

Speaker 2: 43:05

I said no, no, no it's still a GM car, it's still owned by GM, but the GM company that I know today isn't the same, because they're pretty much saying you know what we're going to do this, we're going to play ball. They've gotten rid of these classic. We're going to play ball, they've gotten rid of these classic. You know iconic lines. You know, as I mentioned, the Camaro, the Malibu is on its way out, that kind of stuff, and it's just, it's not necessary.

Speaker 2: 43:32

Yeah, it really isn't so it's just not the company that I you know. There's just no, I don't know it's no heart, it's just frustrating, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: 43:43

Yeah, stellantis really broke my heart. We were talking earlier. You know your Camaro and your Malibu. I'm crying about my Charger and my Challenger because Dodge took those away and those were the best-selling cars of all time for them. So I'm really curious to know if GM, if Stellantis, are eventually going to bring those back in some way or form knowing that the demand for them is still there.

Speaker 2: 44:07

Yeah, you know it's funny. We've been following this very closely and we sort of have watched the whole evolution of it's inevitable and just get with the program. And everyone's buying, everyone loves these things, and it's just taking the market by storm. And then the Q1 results came, and the Q2 results came, and Ford announced that they lost $50,000 for every EV they sold and everything else. And then all of a sudden, there was this sort of slow recognition that, you know, this isn't working out quite as well as we had planned or as the government had hoped.

Speaker 2: 44:44

And now you're starting to see some grownups making some saying hey, we're you know Mercedes, I think, recently said well, we're not going to go all EV, we're still going to have a robust, you know, gas powered fleet and this and that, and we're rethinking our plans and we're delaying our targets, and you know. So I think they're catching up with the reality. I think that it's perfectly. It's great that people like these cars. I have nothing against them, but what I have is a beef with. Is the impact that this agenda is having on the cost of all cars Right, because again it goes back. To me, the most important thing is people having the ability to get in the game, and the only way to get in the game, especially in this country, is having mobility.

Speaker 1: 45:34

Access, choice, affordability, repairability, right.

Speaker 3: 45:38

All really important.

Speaker 2: 45:39

Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 45:39

Incredible. We've done good, tom. We've done really good on this. I don't think I have any other questions, but I want to know from you if our listeners want to learn more about your organization, where can they find you?

Speaker 2: 45:54

Two places instituteforenergyresearchorg, and they're going to get more than cars fair warning, because we talk about all energy stuff. And then savecarsorg, and they're going to get more than cars Fair warning, because we talk about all energy stuff. And then SaveCarsorg. Savecarsorg is the Save Our Car Coalition, and so both places, both platforms, have a lot of good information. You can sign up and get all our good stuff and then you'll be part of our family.

Speaker 1: 46:22

Fantastic.

Speaker 2: 46:26

Thank you so much for taking the time.

Speaker 1: 46:29

Yeah, it's a great great talking to you. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of Auto Care On Air. Make sure to subscribe to our podcast so that you never miss an episode, and don't forget to leave us a rating and review that helps others discover our content. Auto Care On Air is a production of the Auto Care Association, dedicated to advancing the auto care industry and supporting professionals like you. To learn more about the association and its initiatives, visit autocareorg.