Layoffs & Alignment: Navigating Career Transitions with Intention

Celebrating Authentic Voices

Any favorite moments or favorite speakers so far?

It makes me really proud to see so many of the young women, younger women that I've poured into and helped mentor to see them now running this organization, right? This community and see them as really strong speakers. Yeah. That makes me super proud.

I heard Courtney Pedler did awesome.

She was phenomenal. I mean, for someone who's very technical, her presentation, it was spot on. The delivery, everything about it.

Something she could write a book on, I feel like, is being authentic. I don't know if she could actually, because she probably doesn't even know any other way, is kind of how she comes across. It's kind of like this is kind of what I am. She doesn't even think about changing it, you know, or hiding herself.

I absolutely love people who are grounded in who they are. Yeah. And can and can own it and they're unapologetic about it. I wish more of us had, I don't know, the courage or maybe the safe space to be able to do that.

Meet The Hosts And Guests

Yes, I agree. I feel like it's getting to be a safer space out there too. Like even like with all the people I encourage to do like video on social media and things like that. I'm like, you can leave the ums in there. It's like the more human you are, the better. And like the more quirks you have that set you apart, the better. You know, that's what's gonna separate you from you know the chat GPT that everybody's reciting out there. So exactly. Yeah, she could she could do a masterclass in authenticity. Welcome to Auto Care on Air, a candid podcast for Curious Industry. I'm Jackie Lutz, Content Director at the Auto Care Association, and this is Carpal Conversations, where we collaborate on today's most relevant power skills. We're all headed in the same direction, so let's get there together. Hi, everybody, welcome to another Carpool Conversations. I am Jackie Lutz, and I have with me two powerhouses in our industry, and I've really been looking forward to this conversation. So I actually met Christine Frost. She's the founder of Shattered Glass Advisory, and um I introduced myself to you last year. I remember that. And it's because actually the year before last year at Women in Auto Care, I was laid off at the time. So it was like the one I missed over like, you know, 11 years in the industry. And everybody was raving about how you were at the auction and you there was a was it a Louis Vuitton bag or something that was climbing up, and then you you ended up getting it, and then you passed it over to a girl you work with. And I was like, that is just such a cool story. Like it's just impactful and how much that must have meant to her. And I'm like, who's this Christine Frost? And then last year you were up on stage, and I actually got to see like who you were. So I wanted to make sure I introduced myself to you. And so a year ago, this is full circle, I told you I wanted to get you on the podcast. Yeah. But then you went through a little bit of a career transition. So we were waiting for women in autocare. So why don't you tell the audience a little bit about you?

Founding Shattered Glass Advisory

Sure. So again, Christine Frost, uh, I go by KFR. I don't know why. That's just kind of stuck. I love that. Um, but I am, I am now, as of yesterday, a founder of a business, a of course women-owned business called Shattered Glass Advisory. And the goal with the business is basically to break barriers, to bring those voices and those individuals who have historically been excluded from the C-suite, who've been excluded from leadership, who have been in leadership roles but haven't had a true voice at the table, helping them to now have that voice to drive impact and to help those organizations that need more diversity at the table. So that is the goal. It's a rather lofty goal, um, but I'm really excited about it. Um, but prior to that, I have over 20 years' experience in the automotive industry, both on the OE side and also the aftermarket side. And I am incredibly passionate about helping others and about lifting voices, lifting women, and uh making sure that we are all enjoying this life together.

I love that. And you were, were you HR before?

I was HR, but I'm like, I'm not, I'm not the bad HR. I'm the good HR. Well, obviously. You're the collaborative type. In the collaborative HR. I am the HR that um try tries everything that I can to sort of bridge what may be a cultural gap between what a company and its leadership believes that their culture is and the culture that the employees are living. So we're bridging that gap. We're bringing everyone along and we're elevating the experience for the employee.

Yes, I love that. Um, and I love that you were HR, just for like a good background for the conversation we're about to have about career transitions. So it's amazing. And when I, you know, sometimes I have a topic in mind that I'm like, I know the perfect person to talk about this. Sometimes I just want to get certain people on the podcast. And I'm like, what do you want to talk about? You know, and this was kind of one that you brought up. And when we started talking about who we should have on, um, Tammy Tacklinberg was mentioned, and it feels like an obvious choice. She's fighting similar battles to you uh in the industry and trying to get it to be more diverse. Um and Tammy, I just have to tell this quick story first. Um, so Tammy was the one that actually got me involved in women in auto care um a long time ago. Probably 2019, because I think it was I was um pregnant at the time. I was already chairing Yang and I was also the president of the Automotive Communications Council. And women in AutoCare approached me about doing social media. And I was hesitant. And Tammy sat down with me for coffee, and she said something that has changed the way I look at volunteering in this industry. Because I told her, I'm like, I just don't know. I'm already involved in all these things. I don't really know, you know, if if a pack of women is really gonna like help me much at this point. Like I have a good network, I'm doing things, whatever. And she goes, Well, it's not really about what women in auto care can do for Jackie, it's about what Jackie can do for women in autocare. And even though it was a humbling moment and I'm like, shoot, I gotta do an attitude check. It has honestly changed the way I look at volunteering in this industry. So having you on the podcast is amazing. Um, why don't you just tell us a little bit about you?

DOT And Culture As Advantage

And that sentiment is exactly why I'm here this week. You know, I the speakers are amazing and the talk content is great, but at this stage of my career, it's really about giving back to this community, right? And and showing up. And I think uh so many need to see it, to believe it, to become it, right? So you've been such a good role model to so many. I got goosebumps when you when you told that story. I had a feeling you would tell that story because it was it was really impactful, right? So I've been in the industry for 31 years, which is wild. And I spent my first 25-ish um on the supplier side and with Fortune 100, Fortune 500 companies, and along with private equity, and oversaw lots of functional areas, including um sales and marketing operations, customer service, uh demand planning. Uh I when we would sell our companies with private equity, I would run the global integrations, um, putting the people, the processes, and the systems all together. So I really loved that. Um, through that, I was inspired to join the Car Care Council Women's Board, I think it was 17 years ago, and it was a group of 30 women. And that experience really inspired me to take some of the learnings and access to the things that I had. Currently I was at Honeywell, so Fortune 100, executive coaches and leadership development opportunities, all this really great stuff. Like, how do you bring that back to this group to really make it more about what you're seeing today, right? Really kind of shift the tide in that organization. So I volunteered for many, many years, was president of the community when we we actually negotiated to move it under the Auto Care Association officially and have it be a recognized community like Yang or ACPN and the others. So that has been a labor of love. But what I found was we would invest so much into this community, into the women and all the folks that we would mentor, and even the ones that I led, and we would throw them back into the, we would put them back into the organizations that might not be ready for that change, right? They were they were outgrowing their organization, if I say it in a really polite and politically correct way, right? And so DOT was really born out through a transition. Um, it dot stands for diversity of thought, and it was about helping make culture a competitive advantage. It was about um the organization itself providing data and tools and analytics to be able to understand the DEA DNA. You know, Christine talked about really understanding your culture. So doing that in a really technical way to be able to give the tools and stuff to the leaders. And do I do a lot of executive coaching and it's just been it's been a wild ride, but it's been really fun to see that kind of come full circle of what the and we'll talk about this for sure, but what did the industry need at the time and what were my skills and how to how to kind of package that in a way?

Intentional Career Breaks

Navigate that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's incredible. And I'm really just honored to have both of you guys on. And our topic today is career transitions. And when we first talked about talking about this topic, my head obviously immediately went to like all my friends who are laid off right now, having just gone through one myself. Um, so I went to like this place in my head where it's like an unplanned career transition, the jolt, the emotional effects of it. And I'm like, yes, let's talk about it. This is something that needs to be talked about. I've had people, other people like recommend, you know, talking about layoffs. But after our pre-meeting, you guys made such a wonderful point is that sometimes it's a choice to go through a career transition and to take a break and think about what you want to do. Um, so let's first just talk a little bit about career transitions and what that can look like. So you both have stories of career trans, uh a big, I think probably a lot of them in your careers, but like a big one more recently. So let's just talk a little bit about your guys' story.

Sure. So um, you know, I I stepped out of uh the automotive world um a couple of months ago, and it was really sort of intentional, trying to bring back a bit of balance to my life, as well as all of the things I think that for many years I've ignored. So professional development, personal development, uh traveling around the world, and making sure that I had time to grow into the community that I had only lived in for three years and didn't know anyone, didn't know the names of the roads, I mean, felt like a stranger after three years. So it this transition for me has been very intentional. So a lot of a lot of professional development, personal development, writing a book, launching a business, traveling, um, as well as something that I I was missing for the last few years, and that was being present in the community, in the communities in which I get the most, you know, the most of my cup filled. And a lot of that is around nonprofits. So I've been incredibly honored to be partnering with a few nonprofits in in New York and Metro Detroit and helping them to organize, strategize, and and really, you know, making sure they're successful.

Exit By Choice And By Force

Let me jump into it with this question. So when you decided, like, okay, I'm gonna take a break, you had a big role out of a previous company. I won't say who it was, but like you had a huge HR role. I did. I was um in the C-suite. Yeah. So like stepping out of something like that, which to a lot of people is almost like an end goal, right? Like, that's what I want to be. I want to be in the C-suite. And you got there. I'm sure it was a goal of yours at one point, maybe. Absolutely. Um, and then you walked away from it and not necessarily having a parachute or something to fall on, or and did you have an idea of like this? I'm gonna, I'm gonna walk away and I wanna start my own business. Like, did you know what you wanted to do?

Or no, no, no. I knew that I had buckets of things that I wanted to do, like a laundry list, but I will say that starting a business was not on that list. It it developed very quickly upon stepping away. And yes, I went through sort of that grief experience and that wait, you know, Sunday night when you're you're anticipating work and then waking up Monday morning and going, Oh, I'm I'm not at work. But there's other great things that I'm going to be doing in on this Monday, and sometimes it was just curling up with a puppy. But that sounds lovely. It does sound lovely. But I don't know that I've ever been happier. Um, and I think it was really just entering this with intentionality and saying, I have a gift right now. This is a gift, I don't want to waste it.

I have so many more follow-up questions, but I want to talk about Tammy's transition first too. So I was best as you can.

Emotional Whiplash Of Transitions

Yeah, I was part of a private equity um company, and we grew the business and sold it. Um we had a really successful edit exit, and then uh a couple of years later, sold again. And for me, the realignment was inevitable, right? I was starting to see things shutting down. I saw the writing on the wall, right? As you as you kind of put companies together, um, especially like the higher you are, right? So high risk, high reward. So I was I remember the day that I was let go. I walked in, the HR leader was there, and and I said, okay, so this is it. Like I was so excited about because it was really what I was wanting. Um, I wasn't uh aligned with kind of the the uh the way things were going. I stayed around too long because I was really committed to the company that I had built and the brands that I was so invested in, and most of all the people, like all of my team members that I had brought in. Um, so I I outstayed my welcome for sure. It was it was time for me to find something new. I had this big print on my wall that women from Women in Audicare gave me, and it said, the meaning of life, the purpose of life is to find your gift, the meaning of life is to give it away. And I stood on the steps of my Fortune 500 company with that sign, and I asked my husband, Tom, to take a photo because I didn't know what I was going to do, but I knew it was going to be epic. And it was just about trying to figure out like what are my skills, instead of chasing my dreams, like chasing your skills, like what are you really good at? And we'll talk about transferable skills for sure. And then what does the industry need? And the universe started making my phone ring, and leaders from across the industry needed what I could give them, and so that's how Dot was born, and it's been a very um meaningful experience for me. I th I want to be really mindful though. Christine and I are, you know, we were senior leaders, we're we're more senior in age too, as well, right? You know, we've got our friends at first brands, there's so many people laid off. We were in a different situation, right? So when we exit an organization, you know, you had expertise. We had expertise, but like a personal brand on your side. We also, yeah, it's about building your personal brand, but financially, you know, we're much more stable. So where, you know, I own my homes, like I don't have any bills. Like it was it was a very easy transition for me because I was set up in the right way. So I just want to be really respectful and mindful of all of those folks that are out there that I'm desperately trying to find jobs. I I help so many to, you know, get land the right, the right position.

Yeah, that's a really good point to make as people embark on journeys like that to be thinking of. Because, you know, my you know, my like I'm I wasn't C level when I got laid off. I was more like mid-level management, I'd say, like upper mid-level. Um, and you know, I was kind of at a certain point like you guys, where I was already kind of looking for other jobs. I was already doing some interviews here and there because I knew I wanted to try something different. I wanted it to be on my terms, you know, and like walk away on my own with a with the security blanket that I wanted and everything. And it ended up, you know, my company went through a huge transition and I was let go. And um even though I had so many people in the industry say, like, you're gonna be fine. Like, I'm really not worried about you. Like, you'll find something. Um, and I know so many of my industry friends right now going through that. Um, it's such a frustrating and emotional time that I think people need to realize that it's very normal. And even when you choose to do it on your own, you still have these fears. You still have this like insecurity. Like, can I do this? And one day you feel good. One day you're like, I feel awful. You know, one day I I one day I would feel like, oh, I have so many opportunities. Like I have all these lists, like doing all of these interviews, and you know, I'm gonna be fine. And then one day, you know, three days go by and I hear nothing from nobody. And I'm like, oh my gosh, what am I gonna do? You know, you kind of like go through this roller coaster. And a lot of that is almost necessary, you know, it's necessary noise that you have to have and work through in order to figure out if you want to be intentional about that time, yeah. Whether it was a jolt or whether it was a decision, if you want to be intentional with that time, you know I think what you said in our pre-meeting was figure out what brings you joy. Yep. And I thought that was a really good point.

Absolutely. And it's not always easy. So, um, and and I've been I've been teaching my kids this, you know, find what you're passionate about, find what you're good at, and find a way to monetize it. I think, you know, as we look at the generation Z and the future generations, the gig economy is is growing, you know, faster than anything. And I think that taking time if you've been if you've been laid off, taking time to really let yourself sort of um, you know, embrace what what's happening, making sure that you're taking care of yourself. If you, you know, mental health is a big thing, but making sure that you are, you know, providing comfort, that you have a strong support system and taking time to breathe, I think that that is I I think it's it's really absolutely critical.

Networks And Personal Branding

It's hard because when you are kind of under the financial pressure, you know, like for me, I was like over half of our income. So me losing my job, you know, luckily we had a bit of, you know, a few months to figure it out. But that was pretty scary now with two kids. You know, had that happened five years ago, I probably would have felt okay. Um but it's really hard when I think I I'm speaking in good company here when like I devote a lot of my extra time to my work as well. It's what I'm always thinking about. Yeah, if I do get a chance to read, it's what I'm reading about. You know, like I just I want to be better at my career, I want to grow my career. So when all of a sudden you're handed a pink slip and they're like, okay, you know, you devoted your energy and your passion was your company, it was your job, and now that's gone. And then you're trying to be like, okay, but what brings me joy really? Like, okay, well, I haven't thought about that in a very long time. In a long time, I'm sure. Yeah. That's a hard conversation.

I think it's really important to be prepared. So the higher up you get, the more risk. I talked about this earlier, but the more opportunity for you to be cut, it's there, right? And I think so many are not prepared. The women here, 434 women here, are building their network. And that's the smartest thing that they can do to be prepared. So if they were the worst thing happened, right? That there's so many people that can help lift them up and help get them through that process, right? And help get them to the other side. And I think that being prepared with resumes and that type of stuff, because most people feel invincible that it's never going to be me. And you know, statistics show you that it will, right? And so I I think that's really, really important, but also not tying yourself to your brand, right? So you were sensata forever. Um, people still to this day, and I haven't volunteered, you know, in a full capacity in many ways, but people always will equate me to women in autocare, and that's lovely. And I'm proud of that, but it also uh it's can be damaging because a lot of people think that I only support. Women, right? And I'm not supporting men, or they get confused about it. And so even with my own corporate brands, right, like you get tied to a brand. And so I think it's really important. We always talk about personal branding and just being really loyal to your brands, but not just having that be your full identity. Yeah. I always say that makes sense.

Yeah. Like in my personal branding talks, I always say that you should have three to four themes to your brand. And I always use myself as an example. And like if my only thing was working for my previous company and that's all people knew me for, and then I get laid off, I'm rebuilding from scratch. Yes. Absolutely. Exactly. Nothing else. Exactly. So, you know, I I have, I usually have the company that I'm working for, you know, personal branding, all the volunteer work that I used to do, being a working mom. You know, I had like other things that I would talk about. But you pick three or four so people can remember them all. Yes. Um and just decide kind of like what you want to be known for. So that way, like something like this happens. You're not, you're not starting from ground zero. Yeah.

Letting Go Of Baggage

I do think, I do think it's important to realize, you know, particularly if you're in a situation where you are not choosing the transition. I think it's important to realize that the emotional process that you will go through will not be linear. And I think, I think, Jackie, you hit on it. You know, one day you feel invincible and then you get maybe you get ghosted by a recruiter, or maybe you get um, you know, a recruiter calls you and says, sorry, the company's going to pass on you. Or time goes by and you're not seeing the jobs out there that you want. Um, so it's not linear. You're going to have those ups and you're going to have those downs. And I think, you know, what Tammy said about network, take that time to build a network. If you haven't done it already, and I think everyone should be out there building networks, find your network. And maybe it's it's several. I know we know women in autocare. There are other um associations where you can find people. There are things that are out in the in the community. Um, so you know, you aren't a singular identity, and people think of you from you know, very different lenses, and hopefully they're all positive lenses.

Because you're you're generally really isolated. I watched the people that transition not by choice, and their whole network was within their company and their teams, right? And then maybe that's cut off and they're not, you know, they're not supposed to be talking to them anymore. So it's very lonely. So if they can tap into Yang or ACPN or Women in Autocare or the other uh communities, it's just I think that's so incredibly important to be able to have that.

Yeah. And I think, you know, not to get back on my soapbox, but personal branding is such a huge part of it because you think you might think you have a big network. Maybe a lot of people know who you are, but do they trust you? Do they know what it's like to work with you? Do they know what your personality's like? You know, did they have coffee with you one day? Like to really lean into your network, not just grow it and not just have people that know who you are, but really be like, do people want to work with you? Right. You know, are you desirable? Right. And like make sure that that's you know, built into, you know, however, however you're building your whether it's, you know, digitally on LinkedIn and and really going for it, or whether it's just coming around these networking events, you know, build the relationships, not just like the acquaintances. Yes. I think that's huge. Because like having more than an acquaintancy with you really helped me build my network more because the more relationships like that, like people that have your back, that's more opportunities that you're being put up for when you're not in the room to speak for yourself. So important.

The Only Woman In The C‑Suite

And it it is a very lonely place when suddenly, you know, as as Tammy said, you're cut off from all of these people that, you know, were a huge part of your life in that company. You spent most of your time there, more time than you're with your spouse or your children and or other members of your family. And then that's gone. And it's isolating. And, you know, it it it can be it can be very dark. You can go to very dark places. Yeah. Um, but having a network, uh, and intentionally taking time to reach out to one another, particularly um, you know, if there's if there's a group of people who've been who've been laid off, share in that, share those experiences, make sure that no one is left alone. Yeah.

Yeah. Absolutely. And um, if we get into some like tactical things, something we mentioned in our pre-meeting, I don't remember which one of you it was, um, but mentioned being stuck in the past and how that can hinder some people from moving forward when things like this happen. Do you guys have any thoughts on on that?

I I think being able to shift your mindset to think about that this is a realignment, right? That you are this is an opportunity. This is your the door's wide open and you get to choose where you go next. And I think you in order to do that in a in a very positive way, you need to let go of the baggage that held you back and the anger, you know, there's a lot of anger. There's a lot of the stages of grief. Yeah, yeah, exactly. All of the stages of grief, but you need to find people that can help you accelerate that because the sooner you let that go, the more valuable you'll be to your next organization.

Yeah, how did you guys do it? I think someone mentioned journaling. Oh, yes. Do you journal? You journal? Journaling. So how did you go about journaling to help you through this? How did that help you?

Um again, I think I think whenever you are experiencing major change, your your mind is everywhere except this very moment. You know, you're you're sitting there and you're going back and you're thinking about the past and the what-ifs. Could I have done something different? Could I have done something different? Did somebody know something? Was there a rumor? Was there what what happened? You are left with so many questions that you'll never have an answer to. But the great part is that's behind you.

Yep.

Right. And you don't know what's going to be in the future, but you have this moment in the present. And I find that um getting up in the morning, having a routine, and one of one of my daily routines is journaling. So it could be about a specific topic. I don't typically write down, well, yesterday I had coffee with Dear Diary. Yeah, it's not it's not a dear diary moment. That's why I picked up. No, no, not a dear diary moment. It is, I mean, word salad for lack of a better term. Anything on your mind you're just anything that's on my mind, anything that um I may be thinking or I may be feeling, I usually journal to music because I find that music for me brings out the emotion. And I'm able to put it on the paper, close the journal, and get on with my day.

Do you read it after?

No.

Skills To Navigate Power Rooms

So it's more just to like silence your mind a little bit. Like maybe if it's on paper, you can forget about it and like screen your mind for a future book.

Right. Right? I mean, it absolutely has content for a future book. You've got to make sure people a future book. Hold those stories tight. I feel like one of the things that we need to touch on is the ongoing trend on the once you once women get to the C-suite, they're often the only the only. Right. And there's such a trend of you get to the top of your game and then you exit. And so there's so many reasons around that. We're actually launching by choice you exit or both. Yeah. Like not. Mostly by choice. Okay. So in the time and they get there and they laugh. And they either leave our industry. So all of my not all, but my very best friends in the industry were very senior executive women that all made the choice, like, peace out. I'm going to either go to another industry where it's a bit more progressive, or I'm going to consult or or just exit the workforce in in general and retire early. So it's been really interesting to watch this and it inspired. We're launching a um leadership development for women only in April. It's going to start in April, and then the second session will be in May. But it's really around how to navigate these situations of when you when you are navigating the workforce as a woman, you're not crazy, these things are happening, and there's a there's layers of opportunity to be able to unpack and understand how you're showing up, how you can sorry, someone just gave popped in. You know, how to how to be able to to win in that environment. Think about it, like the people, as you're coming up, you have allies and you have sp you know executive sponsors, and there's everyone is supporting you. When you get to be their peers, then it's a competition. It's a different game, right? It's also really isolating because you're the only. But then that person, you know, they want them to be a change agent, but then they don't really want to change, right?

Humility Over Titles

So that is very common. I think you I think you've really hit on something there. And as as a woman who's been in the C-suite and was the only woman in the C-suite, I will say it is it is a difficult moment. It is incredibly lonely. Um, and you're right. I think, you know, when I when I look at these um recruiters who call me, or I see something posted on a job, and they're specifically saying, look, we want a woman. We don't have a woman in the in our C-suite. This is a great opportunity. My question, now having that experience, is are you ready for that? Is the organization ready for that? Have are are they ready to embrace a different viewpoint? And diversity of thought. I'm telling you, exactly. Diversity of thought. Yes, yes. And I think, you know, to your point, Tammy, I think a lot of women who are there in that C-suite, you just get exhausted because not only are you a different voice, but you have to work two, three, ten times as hard to gain trust and authority. I know. I I was in a C-suite where not only was I the only female, I happened to be also, well, at this point, the second youngest person in the room. And it was constantly trying to prove that I belonged there. And that I think is a battle that, you know, if you're if you're doing that every single day, at some point you're gonna say enough's enough. It's the extra tax.

And and that that's so much of what the training we're doing is is to is to show you this is why you're feeling exhausted and how to navigate that, right?

So I just don't want people to be too discouraged. And because to me, like I bel I believe everything you guys are saying. Like I know that it's it's true. I feel like I've heard it enough. I know it's true. But for like people like me who are like, I don't know if this is my goal anymore, but people like in middle management who are like, I want to be C level. How do you I don't know, do you get ahead of it? Is this just your fate? Like, how do you prepare yourself for when you do get there to have a different experience? Or is this more of the culture change that we need because it's just not up to one person, you know?

Transferable Skills And Lateral Moves

No, it's both. I mean, that's exactly why we built this training out with my partners at Mesh to really teach you and train you to give you those skills to navigate it because uh we haven't been prepared for this, right? We're prepared to be a leader like everybody else is a leader. We got that. But there's a whole nother dynamic going on in that room that we're not prepared for. Yeah. And so it's it's about that. It's about engaging with the tools and and the right training to be ready.

Do you feel like men have their own issues too? Of course. We have all about their issues. We have all the issues. Like, like, you know, this is uh, you know, a common thing that you see with women when they get to the C level suite. It's not like men never get laid off. Like, so what for the men listening? What are they watching out for?

A lot of men, there's I mean, we all have imposter syndrome, right? So there's all this. Even men over women, the statistics show that men are more likely to code switch. So that so they're kind of hiding who they 100% authentically are often. Um, they're not letting out their kind of personal life as much. I think we're more of an open book.

Um but I think there's a competition there among men or a everyone bel perceives that there is a competition among the men that I don't think, you know, me being like an only f the only female in the C-suite, I don't feel that competition. Um, but I do, I mean, it is taxing. And, you know, if you think that um if you think historically men have been the breadwinners of the family, that's certainly changing. I mean, that's another added action. Yeah. That is an incredible amount of pressure.

Yeah. Um, and one thing we didn't really hit on um that I think is kind of important and it definitely is something I dealt with when I was laid off, is the humbleness factor to it. And I had a conversation I think, Tammy, I think we had a conversation about this. So when I was looking at that point, I think I think it was actually before I got laid off and I was looking for a new position. And I wanted to move up. I was a little bit at a ceiling where I was at, and I wanted to like the new title. I was looking at it that way. And for from being like head of global, like VP was what was on my head. And you know, you kind of were like who cares? How old was I? Like 35. Yeah, I don't know what I was. Yeah. And and what I realized, and like even in the role I'm in now, um, I I probably would I don't even know if I would have applied for this role had it been a role that was actually like out there because I just felt like I wanted to have the step up. And I just had Liz Whalen on the podcast, and she talked about um moving over. Right. Yeah, lateral moves.

Lateral moves, getting experience in all these different functional areas to be able to ladder up.

Purpose Over Ladder Climbing

Yeah, and I think that maybe that's something people need to hear too is like, you know, um titles really don't mean much. Uh, you know, like I I feel like I have more responsibility in this role than did in my other one. You know, I think I have more pressure, even more stress at times. Like I care about it so much more. Like, you know, when something goes wrong with this, it hurts like for days. Like I beat myself up. So, you know, I think that that's something too that I hear from a lot of, you know, industry people, like what they're looking for, you know, VP of sales, you know, this is like these are the kinds of roles. Um, and maybe we should just be open a little bit and a little bit humbled that actually, I don't wanna, I am gonna uh name him, but JC Washbish one time, uh, it wasn't about me, but it was uh from somebody else that got laid off. And he at he told me he asked him, um, well, how much because he was thinking about hiring him. He's like, Well, how much do you think you're worth? And they gave him a number and he goes, Well, technically right now you're worth zero. Like you're not working right now. So, like, you need to be open to like I'm not saying to like dive down and you know, make half of what you were making before. But, you know, I had non-negotiables. I had five non-negotiables. I didn't get a single one in this job. Like, I was like, I'm not budging on these things. And I budged on every single one. And I'm so glad I did. So I think there's a little bit of like humbleness and flexibility to this search too. Don't, you know, maybe maybe look at roles and be like, what could this be? What could I make it? Right. And just because it might be a certain title, you know, online doesn't mean you can't negotiate those things.

But you were you were doing a lot of self-work on finding your why. Yeah. And what what really lights you up? What's your purpose? And this checked a lot of those boxes.

Yeah, and it was an exhausting. Stacy asked me that when I um I went to lunch with her, and I had no idea she was gonna ask me, you know, you know, because we she wanted to work with me. I didn't know that at the time. Just went to lunch with her because she was a friend. And she goes, Well, what do you want to do? I'm like, God, I hate that question. I don't know. I haven't had a choice in 10 years. I don't know what I want to do. Right. I don't even think I'm doing what lights me up. I don't know. You know, but like talking to her, she kind of helped me find that and like format this role. And like, I'm like, oh my god, that would be a dream job, you know? And then I kind of had an idea of what to work for. But um that was another thing too. I used to love sales, right? And I was like, well, maybe this is my chance to go to sales. But when you're a global head of marketing, you're not gonna become a global head of sales.

Right, right.

Right?

Practical Preparation And Volunteering

You have to, but now you're selling in a different way. So I think it's all about those transferable skills and understanding like where your superpowers lie and how to, you know, what does the industry need? And this this role couldn't be more perfect for you. You're really great example of when when the universe sort of forces you out of your nest because you weren't looking, you were you were dabbling around and looking for other jobs, but you hadn't found anything exciting. And when this happened, you were like thrown out there. And if you feel really naked, yeah, and you couldn't have landed in a better place. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, it's been fun.

Yeah, I do think there, I mean, there is something to kind of that humility factor. Um, but I think I think chasing titles, and this is the HR person in me coming out, I think chasing titles is a losing proposition. Um I believe that folks, as they're coming up through their career, leadership, non-leadership, and everything in between. Learn as much as you can about every function in the organization. Each organization you go to, sit in meetings with engineers, even though you don't understand engineering. Um, you know, sit with the marketing group, understand finance, you know, walk through a PL. Start getting that broad experience. Because chasing the titles, you know, at some point you're you're you're doing yourself a disservice. You won't get the title, or you'll get the title, but you won't be happy, or you won't be effective. Um, and I also think that there's there's some research out there that the organization chief, which is an executive women's organization, they are pivoting their entire model around the fact that women are not going vertically up a ladder. People are taking shifts, they're starting their own businesses, they're taking time out, they're pursuing other other things, they're consulting, and then maybe they're jumping in as an executive for a completely different, um, a completely different field. And I think that that is important that you don't narrow your your viewpoint of what you what you um are pursuing. And I think this conversation that the two of you had some time ago, where it's like, what what do you want to do? Think about that. You have a blank canvas. When in your life are you gonna have that? I'm so excited right now. I've never been, I mean, I I like to have fun, but I've never been this excited in my entire career. I've never felt this refreshed, I've never felt this purposeful. And I'm going to take all of that energy and ensure that my next search fulfills what what that you know that that level of excitement, that level of interest, that level of passion. I want it to be there. I want it to be a good fit. Not chasing a title, not chasing a name, just chasing purpose.

Final Takeaways And Support

Before we kind of wrap this up, to follow that up, um, do you think that that is a luxury that C-level executives have? Or do you think that somebody who is five, 10 years into their career should be like, does this job light me up? Not really. But do you need that job to get the experience to get to something that lights you up? I don't know. Like, is that is that a luxury or is that something that everybody should be really thinking about?

I think there's other ways to light you up, right? You need a paycheck and you don't don't make rash decisions like play the long game, right? Keep your eyes open, build your network, understand what other opportunities are out there. Like really work on learning what makes you. tick and then within your company volunteer for maybe other project work or raise your hand for different things to be able to get that broad experience that cross-functional experience uh I used to raise my hand for every opportunity and just would layout grab functions and uh at the end I think I led seven different functional areas and it was really great to be able to have uh just diverse experience.

Yeah and I think like volunteer opportunities too that's a really good way. I always told people when I was chairing Yang, I'm like, if you've ever been curious about social media, yes. Like this is the place to make the mistakes, honestly. This is the place to learn. Right. You know, and meet other people that are doing it and have a little network there. So there's there's other ways too. Yeah. Well thank you guys this was such a good conversation. I'm kind of sad that I have to wrap it up because I feel like this could keep going. But I do want to just go around the room real quick and you know if our audience was capable of taking away one thing from this conversation. I'm curious what each of you what message each of you guys hope that that is.

I'll let Tammy go for you're not you're not in an alone right there's not anyone in this room here that I know or across the industry that's not going to pick up the phone when you call and ask for help. Build your network and and just don't it's such a lonely experience but you you're not alone right like find ways to connect with others and let them help you because we all want to help be you know helpful.

Yeah just on that like a suggestion I have is I've had a lot of people reach out to me on LinkedIn who are laid off and they just ask for a coffee moment, you know, and it's like 15, 20 minutes and they just tell me like, you know, I learn about their story and I get to meet somebody new and I get to you know they tell me what they're looking for and then like they have somebody now who's a little bit more invested in them. Yes. Who, you know, isn't just going to say yeah I'll keep my eyes open. It's more like this sounds like there would be something good for you. You know like really keep your eyes open. So like I think a lot of people in your network are open to that and I feel honored when people do that to me.

It's not being afraid or shy about just asking for what you need. I need 15 minutes of your time for a coffee chat. I need you to lift me up today because I'm feeling a little bit down. I also would love to share for the recruiters out there and not including Liz because she's amazing. But but but there's so many that ghost them and that's the whole process is so broken, right? Being able to just be respectful of of the people that you're working with and and just keep them updated along the way because you talked about like there's that gap period where you're waiting and waiting and waiting. And when you're on the inside of a corporation like you know a month goes by and it feels like five minutes but when you're on the outside it feels like a life you realize like this isn't isn't as important to everybody as it is to you. You know so really you know just being mindful where you even if you're a hiring manager being mindful where you have the power to just be honest. Also give that feedback to someone after they interview if they're not a right fit. Give them that positive feedback and the opportunities on these are the things I think you should be working on to be able to be ready for the next time we're hiring right absolutely you saw that so many don't do that.

Yeah and honestly it's changed the way if I'm ever a hiring manager again I look at it so differently I will be better at it because people are in such an emotional state they are you know and sometimes they are hanging everything that they have going like this is the last opportunity that they have going right and then they hear nothing and their brain is going and just getting them to bad places. Absolutely communication.

Yeah I think you know from from my perspective I think it's important that folks know that we have all been here we have all been in a situation where the job that we thought we were gonna have for maybe our entire careers is gone without warning and it is lonely and it is scary and you know make sure you lean on your network. Make sure you ask for those coffee moments um if you don't have a network reach out to me. I love connecting people to opportunities. But you know it it's lonely but so many of us have gone through it or are going through it and um yeah keep reaching out.

I think my takeaway and it's probably predictable but I would say one thing that you can do to prepare yourself whether it's going to be on your terms or not but a career transition is just personal branding. That is something that is actually in your control. That is a tool that you will take with you across your entire career and it takes time to build it. It takes time to build that trust and for people to believe what you're saying and start now like the best thing I didn't have a Jackie telling me to do this and I don't even know why it happened but I started working on that five years before I got laid off and it saved me. Like if I didn't have that to lean on during that time I don't know how I would have necessarily made it through because I knew that my name was being talked about in rooms that I wasn't in by people I've never even met because I had worked on that and like that is something that you can actually practically touch. Like you can do you can actually build that for yourself. And I would just encourage everybody to be thinking about that. It's kind of a newer thing too because of the digital presence you can have as an individual not necessarily as you it is it is absolutely critical. So powerful it is well thank you guys this was incredible thank you like there's a part two because it's really like I feel like we could have gone even deeper. So I really appreciate your guys' time and sharing your insights it's a pleasure love it. Thanks for having us thank you very much. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of Auto Care on Air Make sure to subscribe to our podcast so that you never miss an episode. And don't forget to leave us a rating and review. It helps others discover our show. AutoCare on air is proud to be a production of the Autocare Association dedicated to advancing the autocare industry and supporting professionals like you. To learn more about the association and its initiatives visit autocare.org